2. Committee biographies

Master Overview of the Committee

Standing Committee on Public Accounts (PACP)

Committee Members

Rounds for Questions and Answers (Order is subject to change if there is an agreement amongst parties, timing outlined below is for both the question and the response from the witness)

First Round

• CPC (6 minutes)
• LPC (6 minutes)
• BQ (6 minutes)
• NDP (6 minutes)

Second and subsequent rounds

• CPC (5 minutes)
• LPC (5 minutes)
• BQ (2.5 minutes)
• NDP (2.5 minutes)
• CPC (5 minutes)
• LPC (5 minutes)

TBS-Related PACP Activities – 44^th Parliament

• Briefing from the Canada Audit and Accountability Foundation
• Introductory briefings from the Auditor General; Comptroller General of Canada; others.
• Public Accounts of Canada
• Reports of the Auditor General of Canada
• Main Estimates 2022-23 (OAG)
• Greening Government Strategy (Secretary of the Treasury Board)

Interest in TBS Portfolio

Conservative Party of Canada (CPC)

• Spending Oversight and Accountability
  • Conservative MPs consider the government is spending too much, and without proper oversight and accountability. MP Jeremy Patzer criticized the fact that “there is always so much spending and it is impossible to keep track of it all”.
    • February 9, Debate on Bill C-8
  • MPs Kelly McCauley and Pat Kelly (not committee members) have criticized the way the government produced the Public Accounts, suggesting that the audited Public Accounts were re-opened for political gain; showed concerns that the late tabling made it impossible to hold the government accountable for “out of control spending”.
    • December 8, Committee of the Whole – Supplementary Estimates (B) 2021-22; December 10, Question Period; February 3, Debate on Bill C-8; March 1, OGGO – Supplementary Estimates (C) 2021-22
• Public Service and Public Servants
  • MP Philip Lawrence (no more a committee member) claims that he is frustrated by the fact that when he was a member of PACP, the studies have always focused on the same topic ands reports that do not necessarily get implemented. He wants to focus more on improving the performance of the public sector.
    • May 5, PACP – Main Estimates 2022-23 (OAG)
• Environment and Greening Government
  • MP Philip Lawrence (no more a committee member) believes that investments in many sectors of government need to be made, specifically about data management and climate change resilience. He mentioned that he would like more information on what the government is doing on that front.
    • March 3, PACP – Meeting #8

Bloc Québécois (BQ)

• Spending Oversight and Accountability
  • MP Sinclair-Desgagné suggested that the President of the Treasury Board is happy that workers from the Office of the Auditor General are on strike because it means they are no longer able to produce reports that “embarrass the government” and that they can no longer ensure accountability.  
    • March 31, Statement by Members
  • MP Sinclair-Desgagné showed concerns that Crown corporations make it impossible to correctly track government spending. With Crown corporations, “it is impossible to know how much money is being handed over”. She believes that the current situation is unacceptable.
    • May 9, Debate on Budget 2022
• Public Service and Public Servants
  • MP Sinclair-Desgagné showed support for employees working at the Office of the Auditor General that are on strike, saying they deserve better pay equity.
    • March 31, Statement by Members
• Environment and Greening Government
  • MP Sinclair-Desgagné criticizes the fact that, regarding greening government, Crown corporations are held to lower environmental standards. More notably, she criticized some of the Public Sector Pension Investment Board’s environmental practices.
    • February 15, PACP – Meeting #6
  • MP Sinclair-Desgagné believes Government funding should be cut off to sectors where positive environmental results are lacking, such as the oil sector
    • February 8, PACP – Meeting #4

New Democratic Party (NDP)

• Public Service and Public Servants
  • MP Blake Desjarlais criticized the Pheonix Pay System, saying that the Treasury Board not consulting with public servants resulted in a direct impact on workers. He claims that years later, the Government continues to fail with Phoenix.
  • May 3, PACP – Meeting #17
• Environment and Greening Government
  • MP Desjarlais often criticizes the lack of “real climate action” by the Government. He believes the government should be held accountable on the lack of progress on that front. He believes climate actions should play an integral part in the action plans of Government departments.
    • December 1, Reply to the Speech of the Throne; March 1, PACP – Meeting #7; April 7, Statement by Members
  • Other NDP MPs, like Laurel Collins (not a committee member) showed concerns over the fact that when it comes to the greening government, Crown corporations are not required to report on their emissions.
    • May 3, ENVI – Meeting #15
• Diversity and Inclusion
  • MP Desjarlais believes more work needs to be done in the public sector and with Crown corporations when it comes to ensuring diversity inclusion and equity. He believes stronger targets and indicators should be put in place so we can see the tangible results and progress.
    • February 15, PACP – Meeting #6; March 31, PACP – Meeting #12; March 31, Debate on Bill S-214

Recent PACP Meeting Summaries (of relevance for appearance)

Meeting 17 – May 3, 2022

Public Accounts of Canada 2021 (Appearance by TBS officials)

Full transcript: Evidence – PACP (44-1) – No. 17

The Auditor General began the meeting with her opening remarks on the Public Accounts of Canada 2021 (PAC), and the process involved in auditing the accounts. She confirmed that the document met with her approval. She outlined why there was an amendment to the PAC, and the process that her office undertook to assess and complete the revision. The AG also review the exceptional spending related to the pandemic. She described the comments section of her review, and also touched on the state of affairs in the PS pay administration file, as well as the review of DND’s inventory control problems. Other issues mentioned included cybersecurity and data management.

Mr. Huppé provided the Committee an overview of the PAC, stressing the ‘clean’ audit the GC has received for the 23rd straight year. He highlighted the deficit numbers, and compared it favourably to initial projections. He reviewed why the PAC was re-opened last year, as well as the process of revision that led to the publishing delay beyond the norm, though still well within the statutory requirement. He reviewed the study of potential modernization of the Public Accounts, committing to work closely with parliamentarians and Canadians as the process advances.

The Committee posed a wide range of questions including a particularly sharp focus on the reopening of the PAC last fall (CPC); the gap in transparency of financial reporting between Crown Corporations and the rest of government (BQ); and the progress of the government on the Phoenix pay system problems (NDP). A full accounting of questions is included in the summary.

Follow-Ups

Request for an official opinion on the options available to achieve the objective of closing the gap in financial transparency between Crown Corporations and the rest of government, specifically in creating a requirement for the jurisdictional destination of Crown Corporation funding decisions to be publicly available. - Mme. Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné (BQ)

Other Parliamentary Activities

43^rd Parliament

Oversight of the Government of Canada Advertisings

• The Secretary of the Treasury Board appeared at PACP with the OAG on February 23, 2021 to discuss Report 4, Oversight of Government of Canada Advertisings, of the 2019 Spring Reports of the Auditor General of Canada
• In his opening remarks, Mr. Wallace indicated that TBS has addressed all six of the recommendations made in the report. He said TBS conducted an analysis and concluded that a dollar-based target remains the best indicator for risk. He also pointed out that the threshold for mandatory review has lowered from $500,000 to $250,000, reflecting changes in the industry and lower advertising costs associated with digital advertising. He said this approach is designed to capture at least 80 percent of government’s annual advertising budget. He noted TBS adopted a new evaluation form for Ad Standards to better document their findings, as well as a two-stage review process – once in the early stages and again before the product is published. He outlined that in Fall 2019, a panel of TBS and PSPC officials began assessing a sample of Ad Standards’ reviews each quarter, and found they were reviewing the criteria consistently. Finally, in 2020, a pilot project was started to review public complaints, and Canadians can submit complaints, triggering a review, which will be posted on Canada.ca.
• The BQ’s questions focused on whether reviews of advertising ensured consistency with the Official Languages Act, and whether the decision to lower the advertising spending threshold to trigger an automatic external review was lowered too slowly, given the rise of lower-cost digital advertising.
• The NDP’s questioning centered around how reviews examined advertising containing ethnic and Indigenous languages, and whether standards were applied consistently across campaigns and departments. Questions were also asked whether contracts could be artificially split to avoid the threshold.
• Members asked several questions about how the public complaints process works. In particular, CPC members were suspicious that the reason zero complaints were received was more because Canadians did not know about process, not that they did not have any complaints to register. Members also asked about the efficacy and impartiality of Ad Standards, an external not-for-profit organization, in ensuring advertising was non-partisan as well as and how advertising campaigns below $250,000 were reviewed to ensure compliance.
• TBS recently responded with a follow-up letter, however PACP has not come back on it.

Public Service Culture

• The Secretary of the Treasury Board appeared, along with PCO, at PACP on March 9, 2021 for a briefing about public service culture.
• Ms. Sherman (PCO) addressed public service culture as a whole in her opening remarks, highlighting the Beyond2020 initiative and the successes that have come from the program in becoming a more agile and inclusive public service. Ms. Sherman also emphasized the commitment to creating a more diverse and inclusive public service, including the call to action by the Clerk of the Privy Council in early 2021.
• Mr. Wallace (TBS) stressed that the public service not only accepts the message from the Auditor General in the 2018 Spring Reports but that it is being embraced. Mr. Wallace highlighted 3 areas of progress: rule set in the policy area; greater oversight of the Chief Information Officer and the Comptroller General in accountability for projects in the public service; and reform of HR policies, including the ability for Deputy Ministers to be able to recover performance pay retroactively. The Secretary of the Treasury Board also underscored the work that is being done in terms of culture since Phoenix and stated that the government remains results-driven and progress is not being taken for granted.
• The witnesses were well received by the committee and the overall exchanges between the members and witnesses were respectful. The members specified that while they had tough questions, the questions weren’t intended to be taken in a personal nature.
• Questioning focused on how the public service’s accountability regime has improved; the future of the public service in terms of working from home and technology modernizations in better serving the public; the plans to avoid another Phoenix pay system failure; and concrete steps on how the government plans to address diversity and inclusion issues alongside the class action lawsuit.

Investing in Canada Plan

• The Secretary of the Treasury Board appeared at PACP with the OAG on May 11, 2021 to discuss Report 9, Investing in Canada Plan, of the 2021 Reports of the Auditor General.
• In her opening remarks, Auditor General Karen Hogan summarized the findings of her audit report on the Invest in Canada Plan:
  • Infrastructure Canada—as the lead department for the Plan—provided only a partial picture of progress toward the Investing in Canada Plan’s objectives and expected results.
  • The department was not reporting on legacy programs against expected results. These programs amounted to almost half of the Plan’s funding.
  • Funds were not being spent as quickly as planned. Each year, federal partner organizations moved planned spending to later years.
  • The key federal organizations could not demonstrate that the Investing in Canada Plan was on track to meet its expected results and objectives.
• Given TBS’s role in providing guidance and support to departments on managing and reporting on initiatives, as well as horizontal initiatives, the Secretary appeared but was not asked any questions.
• TBS was invited to re-appear on the Investing In Canada Plan for the 44^th Parliament, at a later date.

44^th Parliament

Greening Government Strategy (ENVI)

• On April 28, 2022, Nick Xenos, Executive Director, Centre for Greening government, appeared at the Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development (ENVI) with the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development and other Government officials concerning the Commissioner’s 2022 Reports, including : Report 2, Greening Government Strategy.
• The objective of the audit involving the report on the Greening Government Strategy was partially to determine whether Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat led the Greening Government Strategy in a manner that supported progress in reducing the greenhouse gas emissions of the federal government.
• The commissioner summarized his most recent reports tabled in the House on April 26.  He noted that carbon pricing is essential to meeting our climate goals but ECCC did not address shortcomings such as requirements for large emitters.  He informed the committee that when it comes to a just transition for workers the government was slow and is not prepared to provide assistance to workers.  They have no concreate plan and need to ramp up their efforts.  On hydrogen, he commented that NRCan and ECCC endorsed the idea of hydrogen as a replacement for more carbon intensive.  Both departments overestimated their assumptions in their modeling and assessments. 
• On greening of government strategy, TBS did well with leadership but should be further along in terms of calculating the amount of GHG reductions efforts were achieving.  With respect to the climate lens tool, it was weakened in later iterations and was unable to gather complete information on projects.
• Due to officials having their cameras off, members asked most of their questions to the Commissioner as they were not aware that officials were on the line (virtual appearance). 
• There were a lot of questions on related to the audit on carbon pricing but the vast majority were put to the Commissioner.  There was a lot of commentary around having large emitters pay more and having some provinces introduce something that is more stringent and more fair. Officials had an opportunity to explain how the ERP addresses some of the short comings the commissioners report mentioned in terms of modelling. 
• Ms. Collins (NDP) showed concerns over the fact that when it comes to the greening government, Crown corporations are not required to report on their emissions. She believes this paint a false picture of the progress of the government on this topic.    

Bios of the Committee Members